Suspension Review

[OUZO Power]

The OUZO lude is a cornering monster now. I had this Saturday installed KYB AGX shocks and ST rear sway bar. This to add to my current suspension setup of: Nuespeed front strut bar, H&R sport springs, DC lower tie-bar. The shocks are amazing. I have them at the softest setting for the first week right now to break in the valves. Latter I'll be going full stiff in the back and a little less stiff in the front. Just for a summary on them. They have 4 ride settings and they will contribute another 1/2 inch drop to your existing drop regardless brand of spring. The sway bar is awesome. Guys my car is so neutral now on cornering. I was going Saturday night hard into every corner and HWY ramp. I had a blast. Only weak spot now on my setup are the RE92's. The good thing is that when I reached max cornering potential all 4 wheels would break loose and start to slide. Not just the fronts or rears.

OUZO performance rating: 5 out of 5 stars
OUZO cost rating: 5 out of 5 stars

Now some will say why didn't I go with Konis or another product. Without question Koni's are better. However keep this in mind. I wanted the Nuespeed Edition Konis like 93SRVMan has. These also come with 5 perches for height adjustability. However the problem was cost and estimated time of arrival was to much. A couple of months if lucky.
Then there were Koni Yellows. I didn't want those cause of the two perch thing in the front. Since I already had the H&R springs I didn't want to deal with the ride being to high or two low. Similar too what Clumzy (Jerry) went through. Also those don't come cheap either. So then as a cool logical thinker that I am, I asked my self what do I really need. Since I have no intention of Auto X. Going with the expensive Yellows would be overkill for my purpose. If anything I would only put the OUZO lude on a closed track if the opportunity arises. Now to quote Quick Lude. Suspension Mods give you the best bang for the buck. Now I need sticky tires and LSD :thumbup:
After a mod like this you realize how bad the stock RE92 tires are.

Also some credit for my mechanics at MotoWerx. They did an excellent install and babied the lude like as if it was there’s. Thanks Vince and Darren. Also absolutely not a Squeaking sounds from the rear sway bar. We put lots of lubing at the new polyurethane bushings that come supplied with the ST bar. Also the shocks come with a nifty screw driver thingy for quick adjustments.

[D-Man]

Sounds like you've made a wize decision Ouzo. I'm hoping to do the suspension mod's this year as well. I've already got my fingers on the stut bars, and the sway bar, shocks, springs and tires will hopefully be installed by late summer. Just in time for some fall cruising of northern ontario, oh ya!

[Jarek]

Imo, and if I had to do it over again, I would do the ST Anti Sway bar first, then tires, THEN shocks/springs together.

[ggweci]

sweet review Ouzo...i plan on getting the ST sway bar and Koni Yellows ( GB ) early this spring...can't wait...

my question is this (as i posted in the GB thread) does anyone know if i'll be able to maintain the same right height i have now with my Neuspeed Race springs?...i don't want to go any higher or lower (a tad lower is ok), i just want to keep the car at it's current "level" height...will i be able to achieve this with the Koni Yellows and their perch settings?

[Satan_SRV]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
They have 4 ride settings and they will contribute another 1/2 inch drop to your existing drop regardless brand of spring....

...Since I already had the H&R springs I didn't want to deal with the ride being to high or two low (Koni). Similar too what Clumzy (Jerry) went through.

Can explain these two statements? Because you are saying the KYB AGX drop 1/2 inch to your existing drop...and then that you didn't choose the Koni's for the ride inconsistency. I'm confused. Also if you could PM me pricing on those, that would be great! Thanks Ouzo!

[Keith]

Thanks again Ouzo, you don't have to repost it again if the board goes down... I got it save and I'm adding it to the new TPC site...

K

[crazykid]

i have teh kyb agx's also.. they a=do work well for the price.. im comletly happy with mine. and i have abused them a bit this past few weeks, every cahnce i get i ve been drivign hard.. and the work well.. its nice having the adjustablity

[Makavelli1227]

Originally posted by crazykid
i have teh kyb agx's also.. they a=do work well for the price.. im comletly happy with mine. and i have abused them a bit this past few weeks, every cahnce i get i ve been drivign hard.. and the work well.. its nice having the adjustablity

Hey crazykid, not to be mean but what is UP with your typing??...it takes me like 5 mins to understand what u typed:confused:

[Grant]

Originally posted by Quick_lude
Imo, and if I had to do it over again, I would do the ST Anti Sway bar first, then tires, THEN shocks/springs together.

Hmm, that sounds familiar....:D

[Jarek]

Yup, good ol cut and paste. :D

[2fast]

HEy Ozo, good to see your happy.

I am debating whether to get S&T or Neuspeed for the
sway bar. I heard that Neuspeed replaces more parts with the install while S & T keeps existing parts which are stock.

Maybe you can shed more light on what comes with it!

Glad to hear it all worked out!
Thanks

Paul

[OUZO Power]

The ST comes with the solid straight bar (duh), Polyurethane bushings, bolts and Grease. The ST Polyurethane bushings fit in the stock brackets. Were as the Nuespeed has all the above plus its own two brackets. So no biggy. They both are the same size and probably same design. The replacment brackets for the nuespeed doesn't mean much. So I guess what counts between these two bars is which you get cheaper. Unless it's the one no longer that's being made like Grant has. The 28mm one. But what I have read and been told that one just ripped the brackets right off the body and he had to weld them on.

[Keith]

I had a 28mm rear Neuspeed bar before...:(

[OUZO Power]

Craig it's highly imposible to maintain the exact same drop you have now regardless of what shock you go with. This cause you already have the H&R springs on stockers. In order to acheive the identical drop you would have to find a shock that would match the identical hight of the stockers after settlment. Highly impossible. Only remedy for this would be coilovers. But this aint worth it unless you sell your H&R. But I don't favour coilovers so it's your call.

Joel After Settlement and due to a shorter length "Quik Lude" compared to stock shocks the KYB's will add another 1/2 inch drop. Maximum drop they are garantied for is for the 1.5 inch spring drops. Add the extra 1/2 inch and your at two. They recomend not using springs rated more than 1.5 inches. Not that more won't work but they say the warrenty the shock for springs with that drop.

Originally posted by ggweci
sweet review Ouzo...i plan on getting the ST sway bar and Koni Yellows ( GB ) early this spring...can't wait...

my question is this (as i posted in the GB thread) does anyone know if i'll be able to maintain the same right height i have now with my Neuspeed Race springs?...i don't want to go any higher or lower (a tad lower is ok), i just want to keep the car at it's current "level" height...will i be able to achieve this with the Koni Yellows and their perch settings?

[ggweci]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
Craig hits highly imposible to maintain the exact same drop you have now regardless of what shock you go with. This cause you already have the H&R springs on stockers. In order to acheive the identical drop you would have to find a shock that would match the identical hight of the stockers after settlment. Highly impossible. Only remedy for this would be coilovers. But this aint worth it unless you sell your H&R. But I don't favour coilovers so it's your call.


i don't mind going a little lower...i just want my car to remain level...this 2 perch vs 3 perch thing is causing some concern of not being able to achieve this...

[clumzy]

Originally posted by Satan_SRV


Can explain these two statements? Because you are saying the KYB AGX drop 1/2 inch to your existing drop...and then that you didn't choose the Koni's for the ride inconsistency. I'm confused. Also if you could PM me pricing on those, that would be great! Thanks Ouzo!

He's just saying that Koni's have only 2 perch settings on the fronts ... so the lower one is a little too low and the top one is a little too high.

I had my Koni's front on the lower perch with Eibach Prokit and it was quite low. Like slammed.

Another thing is that I'm not convinced that Koni's are that much better that the AGX's ... I've got no data on it but I believe the difference is nominal if at all.

Oh and the Neuspeed Rear sway bar ... I thought they didn't make them anymore?

[2fast]

How many perches are offered with the KYB AGX anyway?

Is there anyway we could find out forsure which one is really better. Not talking about what feels better, but what actually is better. What would make one more superior over the other.

Cause the two perch thing does sound like a pain on the Konis. I mean for the money I was thinking it would offer more then that. I have always leaned towards Koni, but if someone can techincally show that Koni is not much superior over AGX i may infact try them out.

On the KYB website they compare there shocks to 2 other companies but not koni, I wonder why?

ITs kinda like intakes and Exhausts. The name, looks and sound is what really sells big, not performance. Dynos can only tell you so much, since different dynos, and variables can be set differently.

This is such a pain:devil:

[ggweci]

this is the answer i got from a couple of guys from PO.com about the Koni's and the perches and my question earlier in this post:

"Yes you can keep your current height.

You can lower the front approx. 20mm and 15mm in the rear if you should ever want to."

and

"there are koni's just for the neuspeed springs with more perch heights, but if you want to stay that low on the race springs, then you can use the regular konis and put them on the top perch up front and middle perch in the rear"

going by these suggestions, the Koni's should be fine for me...what do you guys think?

[OUZO Power]

Dude who you gonna trust? Us family or strangers. Jerry just told you of his experience. If a really low ride is what your looking for or high then Koni's are for you. I just wanted to play it safe that's all.

For Paul. Listen I'm not gonna say which are better cause I haven't tested neither do I have the technical experience to do so. I go out on a limb and say the Konis are better simply because that's what everyone else says. But like I said many times before. Just try to accomadate your needs. Also the KYB's have only one pearch so this way you don't have to worry about hight settings. I told you what the end result is.

[2fast]

Ouzo you make a good point and I really like your review.
So with the KYB will I keep the H&R 1.4 drop? I am worried about my kit scraping the road, so I don't want to go lower then 1.5. You guys were explaining that it will go another 1/2 inch which would bring me to 2 inches-- little to low for me!

[OUZO Power]

Paul then I highly recomend you go with Coilovers and the shock combo you think you need. This way if it sits to low you can jack it up with the coilovers and vise versa. Costs a little more but buys you a peice of mind. I'll get into the negetives of coilovers later. I'm swamped at work today.

[ggweci]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
Dude who you gonna trust? Us family or strangers. Jerry just told you of his experience. If a really low ride is what your looking for or high then Koni's are for you. I just wanted to play it safe that's all.

Ouzo, of course i trust you guys...just getting various experiences...

i wonder if i should just go with the combo you have if it gives a 2" drop (that's the same i have now with the Race springs)...but my concern there is that the KYBs aren't designed to be used any lower than 1.5"...or does that mean that the spring must not lower the car by more than 1.5", but in combo with the shocks, the 2" drop is fine??? if i go that route, i'll sell my Neuspeeds...

oh, and when you say one finger gap all around, does that mean that's one finger straight in at a 90 degree angle to the car? or does it mean one finger at about a 45 degree angle, cuz that's how my car is right now and if the KYB/H&R combo do that then i might go that route...

as you can see by the long, somewhat confusing post, i'm very indecisive...i just want to make the right choice... :confused:

thanks for the help.......

[93SRVMAN]

Originally posted by ggweci
this is the answer i got from a couple of guys from PO.com about the Koni's and the perches and my question earlier in this post:
"there are koni's just for the neuspeed springs with more perch heights, but if you want to stay that low on the race springs, then you can use the regular konis and put them on the top perch up front and middle perch in the rear"


Those Koni's are not JUST for Neuspeed springs -FYI.

[OUZO Power]

Craig since you already have the Race I'd go with the Koni's. Unless your willing to part with them. The Race with the Koni's will be sweet but one hella harsh ride. For sure that would be a better suttep. But I can't tell you what the high will be. If you put it on the lower setting for sure your tow hook will make the city workers work overtime patching up the groves in the pavement. Then again on the high setting who knows what kinda of a drop you'll get.

What ever you guys chose good luck. Just please don't say "But OUZO said so". I'm just posting my experience with my choices and the logic behind those choices guys.

Feel free to ask anymore questions.

[clumzy]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
The Race with the Koni's will be sweet but one hella harsh ride.

Oh please, that combo won't be harsh ... pfff ... I find Grant's Tein setup mildly harsh (meaning most people would be slamming their teeth together).

The progressive portion of Neuspeed Race springs are stiffer than my Eibach's and there's less of it ... which IMHO is good. Not great but good. I prefer stiffer but I think Prokit and even H&R sports are too soft ... too much progressive (that's why you bottom out) and the hard spring is still too soft.

I've said this before .. it's about GOALS. If you're planning, like Kostas said, not to AutoX or track then a nice progressive rate on stock shocks for toolin' around the city is fun and a good fit. But if ur plannin' on pushing the limits on the track then you'll want stiffer and stiffer.

There's another whole topic here about rebound adjustable shocks and progressive springs. For example, QuickSilver can pump is AGX's up to 4 and it provides a "stiffer ride" but what you're doing adjusting the shock so it provides more bound than the spring. That's not good for the shocks. As always, more information can be provided if someone asks.

[ggweci]

i really appreciate the info, Kostas and Jerry, thanks for the help...

let me explain a little further...i was really set on the Konis (and still am, sorta) until this whole perch issue came up...i had the Neuspeed Race/Koni Yellow setup on my 93 Civic Si and i absolutely loved it...and like Jerry said, it's not that harsh, stiff but not too harsh, at least for me...when i had the Konis installed on the Civic i had them set at the lowest perch because i really liked the slammed look (2.5") on that car...i still like a nicely dropped car (ie 2") but i don't want that "slammed racer" look on the Lude, it's a little too luxury for that...so i just want to try to stay around the 2" mark...

Jerry, you said that when you had the Konis set on the lower perch with your Eibachs it was slammed...how much did it lower the front and back? did you try another setup (ie. on the top perch for the front)? what are you running right now?

thanks again for the help in allowing me to make an informed decision...

and Kostas, don't worry i won't say that "Kostas said this would work..." ;)

[Jarek]

Originally posted by 2fast
Ouzo you make a good point and I really like your review.
So with the KYB will I keep the H&R 1.4 drop? I am worried about my kit scraping the road, so I don't want to go lower then 1.5. You guys were explaining that it will go another 1/2 inch which would bring me to 2 inches-- little to low for me!
Paul, if you're worried about being too low, just check out Placids picks/ride. He is on H&R sports, KYB's.. His car looks awesome imo..

[OUZO Power]

Craig I can't tell you exatly how low Jerry's ride was and how often he scrapped. What I do know however is he did a custom coilover combo to jack it up a bit. The rest only Clumzy can elaborate on.

[clumzy]

Well, I first bought the Eibach Prokit and lowered on stock shocks like most poor rice-boys ... personally I really liked the look and the ride. At the time I was looking for a near stock ride quality and a nice 1.5" drop. I loved it ... in fact I probably liked it (at the time) more than I like my current setup ... brought me more enjoyment, good value for the $$, naivity, etc.

Anyways, what I did next was buy some used Koni Sports and proceeded to have them installed with Prokit. The perch settings I used were front:lower, back:middle. I found it gave a very aggressive drop in the front but no tuck. The back was about 1 finger. I supposed I could have done front:upper, back:middle and it still would have been fine but I was afraid it'd look like the front was higher than the back ... in hindsight I don't think it would have been an issue.

The problem with putting it so low in the front, like what I was saying before, is that springs like Prokit and H&R Sport provide too much travel if you're too low. They need a finger (1/2-1/3") of fender gap of travel so you won't bottom out.

Once I put on the Koni's I realized that I wouldn't be happy until I had a stiff and adjustable ride. My goals changed and no longer did I just want a near-stock ride but I wanted to track more, be way more aggressive and really LEARN to DRIVE my car. So I went to a coilover sleeve with Eibach ERS linear rate springs ... quite stiff. This spring I plan on playing with the settings a bit but currently it's amazing. I got a lot of advice from people about this and still more help from others here to get my setup as it is. Grant, Cal, and Vince helped alot and they have a wealth of knowledge about 4th and 5th Gen prelude suspension.

[phatz]

ya Clumzy's car handles good, it can really get around a turn :thumbup:

[clumzy]

Originally posted by phatz
ya Clumzy's car handles good, it can really get around a turn :thumbup:

Thanks phatty. You so crazy :peace:

[Jarek]

Jerry, very nice sig! Unfortunately it's about 50K, the dial-up people might complain..

[phatz]

Originally posted by clumzy


Thanks phatty. You so crazy :peace:


haha man there MUST have been some grease or OIL on the tires! I have NEVER slid a lude like that before in my life on dry pavement.

Anyways your car looks really SWEET in the pic! Fresh Zaino eh?

[clumzy]

Rob, next spring we'll bring you out on the track and see if you can do that again in a "controlled" way ;)

Doh, I'll have to change the size of that when I get home ... I actually didn't use any Zaino on that cuz that was done in July last year .. I used California Kiss Paint Cleaner .. it looks amazing until it gets water on it then it's super dull. Guess what I was doing the day before that pic was taken? hehehe

[BB1-4WS]

Originally posted by clumzy
Guess what I was doing the day before that pic was taken? hehehe

Revving his own engine all alone in the garage! :D

[ggweci]

ok guys...since i am paranoid about stuff (especially when i'm spending close to a Grand) i emailed Koni about the Yellows and there perch settings...i asked if i'd be able to maintain my current ride height with my Race springs (and i assume that would be the case for all springs), and here's waht they said:

"Craig,

The shocks when they are shipped to you are already set to the factory ride
height (i.e. you'll maintain the setup you have now). For the standard Sport
shocks, this will be the top groove on the front and the middle groove in the
back. Neuspeed also has a version for your car that has 5 grooves to raise and
lower the ride height with the center one being stock. If you have any other
quesitons, please let me know. Thanks."

so it looks like i can keep my car at the 2" drop i have now if i set the perches at the top for the fronts and the middle for the rears...soooo Koni's it is.......

thanks again to those who helped me "clarify" things, especially Kostas and Jerry....

[clumzy]

That confirms my suspicion that front:upper and rear:middle would give a fairly even drop.

Sash, there is hope! Buy the Koni's! ;)

[sash]

Cool... that confirms it 100% then... Rick told me the same thing....

I'll be buying Koni Yellows... YEEEEEHAAA!!! Shannonville, Mosport and Cayuga, here I come :thumbup:

[ggweci]

yep, i'm gonna grab them too, from Speedtech...can't beat that price...

can someone pm me about the pricing at RT of the install for those, as well as the install of a rear sway bar...would it be cheaper if i did them at the same time? thanks :D

[clumzy]

Originally posted by ggweci

would it be cheaper if i did them at the same time? thanks :D

I would think so because they already got the car up on the lift. If it's more than $50 for the RSB I would recommend you do it yourself. Just lube up the lower control arm bolts in the rear with some WD or Liquid Wrench.

And Craig, you should get a new spoiler and sell me your OEM .. it's so hard to find a used Nighthawk BP OEM for sale.

[SlntSam]

1.4" on H&R + 0.5" with KYB = 1.9"?

Thats out of warranty range for KYB's.


HMMMMMMMM!!!!

Glad you're enjoying the ride...but now you got me thinkin!

[ggweci]

Originally posted by clumzy


I would think so because they already got the car up on the lift. If it's more than $50 for the RSB I would recommend you do it yourself. Just lube up the lower control arm bolts in the rear with some WD or Liquid Wrench.

And Craig, you should get a new spoiler and sell me your OEM .. it's so hard to find a used Nighthawk BP OEM for sale.

thanks for the info Jerry....

and i've actually considered going "spoiler-less", but am still undecided on that...i like the side profile of the Lude sans spoiler, but i don't like the top-rear view of it...looks like the trunk is missing something...and if i ever did sell it my gf would give me heck! she loves it......

[OUZO Power]

Originally posted by slntsam
1.4" on H&R + 0.5" with KYB = 1.9"?

Thats out of warranty range for KYB's.


HMMMMMMMM!!!!

Glad you're enjoying the ride...but now you got me thinkin!

For the gazilionth time. That's in spec. Dammit Kuljit read the posts and stop playing with the hand sign photos. KYB has taken into account the 1/2 inch settlment. They are refering spacifically on the spring drop. So aslong as the spring does not havea drop larger than 1.5 your cool (Spring alone). Otherwise they would specify a 1" spring and add the settlment.

Also read this that I posted before. to explain to someone else. I'm a Civil Engineer. When I design a building or a sewer system or designate max speed of a hwy I always put in a factor of safetey. Lets say I need to select a beam to hold 10 people. So even though (A) beam can hold ten people. I'll still select ( beam that can hold 15. This is my factor of safty. Same goes for all types of engineering. Ask Grant and Marsh. KYB's might emphasize a 1.5 spring drop but for sure they have been designed and tested for a 2 inch spring drop. They are just covering there butts thats all. It's kinda an insurance thing.

[2fast]

Forget the Teins:

They are very expensive. But I have learned that they are very high quality and surpass every performance aspect of the Koni. The tech was telling me it has 24 valve blah blah blah
SO I believed him!

Anyway the price is about 1700 for the spring and shock combo. SStech!! That is before tax! OOUCH!

[OUZO Power]

Paul trust me man. From what I have gathered your not going compitition ringt? Your conserns seem to be focused on your WS lip not scrapping. So just get some GC coilovers with your stock shocks. Ask Trix how he feels about them He has the WS kit too I think.

[2fast]

I thought of that too.

I have pretty much made my descion now.
I am going with the Koni and H&R.
Its a proven setup on the prelude. I know it will give a
perfect 1.4 inch drop max 1.5.

Coilover sleeves are not for me for the price. I either go full coilover or nothing. I will not be in competition, So I do not need coil-overs. I do want to attend lapping days etc.., but no competition (The prizes do not justify it heh). I could go with KYB, and sometimes I considered it, but for 300 bucks difference (I spend that in no time on dinners and going out in one weekend) I may as well get what i am most comfortable with -->koni.

Honestly everyone seems to be making a big deal of the price difference. But I have seen to many people change there shocks and springs a second time cause they are not satisfied the first around. And that is more money.

I'm going to do it once and do it right.
300 bucks more over the life span of a car is peanuts.

But all in all each to his own!

[ggweci]

Originally posted by 2fast
-->koni.

Honestly everyone seems to be making a big deal of the price difference. But I have seen to many people change there shocks and springs a second time cause they are not satisfied the first around. And that is more money.

I'm going to do it once and do it right.
300 bucks more over the life span of a car is peanuts.

But all in all each to his own!

i agree...Konis for me!!!...actually that's my only option cuz i have the Race springs :)

[OUZO Power]

http://www.preludeonline.com/showthread.php?threadid=49865

[Lude_Behaviour]

I agree don't be a cheapskate and try to skim a couple hundred bucks on your suspension. :rolleyes: Even though you may not autocross now, you may in the future, changing over later on would be more costly. Everyone I have met with the Konis swears by them.

[clumzy]

I have Koni's and I don't know what it means to "swear by them" ... I like them, they're adjustable, they suit my needs ... but I've driven QuickSilver's car and he's got H&R + AGX's and I think they're very good. I don't know that there's a huge difference.

I may be mistaken but can you show me some specs that show the differences in them in valving, damping ability, rebound adjustabilty ranges, etc?

[Lude_Behaviour]

I don't know I'm no expert on suspensions and I'm not going to pretend I'm one. But generally you get what you pay for. If there was little to no difference between the KYB AGX and the Konis I think there would be alot of people who would go the cheaper route. In reality this is just not the case. I mean who wouldn't want to save some money and put it into other mods? I mean noone really pays attention to what kind of shocks you have so it's not one of those things where you want to show off what brand you have.

Again please don't start flaming me now, becase I may be wrong; My statement is my own opinion and not fact.

I've never driven a car with the KYB AGX so I cannot speak from experience. But on my previous car (a civic) I had tokico blues and then I got the koni yellows. I can say quite honestly there was a difference. Konis are way better. Could this be due to the difference in there prices? :P

[OUZO Power]

So the Mugen header for about 1000 more than a DC, that returns probably 1-2 Hp more is justified? Try and view now this example in the same terms.

[Keith]

Guys, I know that I could afford Konis if I wanted to and so could Ouzo but if I don't plan to use the Koni's to it's full potential, why should I spend double the amount for them? Does that make me a 'cheapskate'? I don't think so... I think it makes me smart...

keith

[Jarek]

Originally posted by Keith
Guys, I know that I could afford Konis if I wanted to and so could Ouzo but if I don't plan to use the Koni's to it's full potential, why should I spend double the amount for them? Does that make me a 'cheapskate'? I don't think so... I think it makes me smart...

keith
I totally agree. Imo most people with crazy suspensions do not have them because they race/auto-x/lap. It's mostly becuase it's "in". The only variable that would concern me is reliability but since I only need the KYB's for two years, I'm ok.

[2fast]

Rick from RT was saying that the Konis will outlast the KYB.
He is not GOD but he knows his sh*t!
Since I am keeping my car for a long time I will go for what lasts longer.

The header analogy does not really work here Kostas.
The konis can be used to dampan a much lower ride then the KYB, plus has a wider range of dampaning ability hard -->soft.

This is not about a couple of HP. This is your suspension.
Its kinda like necessities of life: a head pillow or running shoes.
If you buy cheap shoes or a cheap pillow you will soon realize
by its longevity and feel. I always buy high quality shoes to ensure I do not hurt my feet or knees from excessive impact.

However I am not saying KyB is cheap. I am just saying that the Koni are probably the best for long term reliablity.
And on that note, 300 bucks is not that much over the lifespan. Why do the job twice.

OEM shocks are great quality they just do not have the great spring rates. I'm not going to replace it with something of lesser quality! So going with the Konis is a little more reasurance, since they are know for there race applications!

Much like HOnda engines are proven in the Race world, we feel good knowing we drive a honda product. I would feel better driving a on a koni product!

All this being said KYB may be just as good i don't know, but I don't have the proof either!:peace:

[OUZO Power]

And which shocks out there happen to be of lesser quality than OEM for our cars paul?

[DirtyLude]

I think I'll be ordering the Neuspeed Koni's soon.

[2fast]

OEM --> proven
Koni --> proven (Neuspeed obviously swears by them and made them better)
KYB --> Unknown. however In a few years Kostas you can give us all a personal Suspension review! Part II :D

No hard feelings dude!! Its just a freakin Car after all!:thumbup:

[OUZO Power]

Nothing personal dude. But you talking **** man. I'm not swearing by anything. Gimmy any brand and I'll tare them to peices with little effort. And KYB's are no unknown brand. The dress the Subaru WRX.

[OUZO Power]

Oh and Paul. Lemme come on here with a different Alias and and say I'm from Texas and I can get you to think what ever you wan't. I'll get you beleiving pigs fly.

[Keith]

Originally posted by 2fast
OEM --> proven
Koni --> proven (Neuspeed obviously swears by them and made them better)
KYB --> Unknown. however In a few years Kostas you can give us all a personal Suspension review! Part II :D

No hard feelings dude!! Its just a freakin Car after all!:thumbup:

Do you know how many people are using KYB AGX shocks? Have you read what people are saying about them? They are very decent. The are not 'unknown'...

Bottom line, get whatever shocks you want, it's your car... you can get no shocks if you like... but don't question other people on their purchases... I don't think anybody would be impressed...

[clumzy]

Hehe .. this thread is becoming kinda funny ..

So far to my "challenge":

... can you (in the general sense) show me some specs that show the differences in them in valving, damping ability, rebound adjustabilty ranges, etc?

Has been unanswered. So far I've only read "anecdotal evidence" and round about justifications. I know there's no dyno's for suspension but there's gotta be some kinda data. Where does it say that Koni's are rated better damping for lower rides? Koni's have lifetime warranties ... do AGX's?

I'm totally not flaming cuz I fairly certain that such data does exist and can be shown here.

[Keith]

KYB AGX has a lifetime warranty as well.

[Grant]

Originally posted by clumzy
.... I know there's no dyno's for suspension but there's gotta be some kinda data. ...
Actually there is such a thing as a shock dyno..
:P

[silvalude]

what about that homepage awhile back where some guy kept flaming imports when comparing them to domestics -- he had some weird bs way of measuring handling and suspension, and how a mustang handles better then a honda . . . let's use his methods if anyone can find it! :thumbup:

Originally posted by clumzy
Hehe .. this thread is becoming kinda funny ..

So far to my "challenge":



Has been unanswered. So far I've only read "anecdotal evidence" and round about justifications. I know there's no dyno's for suspension but there's gotta be some kinda data. Where does it say that Koni's are rated better damping for lower rides? Koni's have lifetime warranties ... do AGX's?

I'm totally not flaming cuz I fairly certain that such data does exist and can be shown here.

[DirtyLude]

This doesn't relate to the current discussion directly, but I decided on the Koni's because of the number of places that rebuild and revalve them. You can get almost every part of them modified and you can also get them converted to bump and rebound adjustable. They are very versatile.

Of course my car really doesn't get driven daily, since the Wife refuses to get in it anymore. :)

[2fast]

Its all good that everyone is happy and is sure of their decsion.
Maybe the Kyb's are proven on a suburu. Its also known that Manufacures use less expensive parts (like tires for example) when building mass produced cars. However, the same could be said with the dodge viper which uses a version of the Koni Yellow! (buts its also 95 g's as well).

Anyway I really don't care to try to hurt anyones feelings. Its an internet discussion board, I was just saying what I am going to buy and why I can justify the extra 300 or so bucks.

One thing that makes me wonder! Why is it when people say they will not be racing or will not be corning hard blah blah blah they always say KYB is enought and seems like they are just settling. When people say they will be going to the track often and will be doing Autocross etc. then they usually lean toward koni or a coiler-over system.

I just got that from reading all the threads here on HP.to.

ALso, I just come here for information, I am in no way trying to start a flame or anything. I never once said KYB is crap, I am just saying I believe Koni is the better system for what I want!

:peace:

[Lude_Behaviour]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
So the Mugen header for about 1000 more than a DC, that returns probably 1-2 Hp more is justified? Try and view now this example in the same terms.

Come on, thats just ridiculous, you must know what I mean. I was putting it in terms of the Konis being only a few hundred dollars more expensive. Thats like us bringing up a real expensive suspension like the models above the Tein HA that are all aluminum and comparing them. These are total overkill for a street driven car.

I was just saying it made more sense to me to buy the konis over the KYB AGX.

Don't take things so seriously...I didn't mean to offend you I was just writing in light of my past experience with cheaper shocks.

[Satan_SRV]

I can feel the love. Can you? :omg:

[Keith]

Originally posted by Lude_Behaviour


I was just saying it made more sense to me to buy the konis over the KYB AGX.


Still don't get it eh... it makes more sense FOR YOU to get the Konis FOR YOURSELF. How can you be so sure what makes more sense for someone else? In Paul's case, he has done his research and has decided that Konis is the what he is looking for... not cause it's the best shock out there...

Remember boys and girls, more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better.

[Jarek]

Originally posted by Lude_Behaviour


Don't take things so seriously...I didn't mean to offend you I was just writing in light of my past experience with cheaper shocks.
I'm curious, what cheaper shocks have you had experience with and what exactly happened? This is not sarcastic, I really want to know.

Question for the guys with the KYB's already on: Is there a difference between these and the stock shocks? If so, can you at least describe it?

[OUZO Power]

1) This post first of all was made to give a product review of something I installed on my car. I did not do a product comparison. And did not state one product is superior to the other. On the contrary I said in my initial post why I chose to go with the KYB's and not the Koni's. I even went as far as saying that the Koni's are better, however this said cause everyone beleives so.

2) At no point did I or did anyone else say Buy the KYB's or try to influence someone else to by this product. However contrary to my opinion members like Paul who have already made up there mind on what they want feel the need to justify there prefiered settup and continuisly undermind the KYB's. However I'm still seeking the rational and the proof from Paul why the Koni's are better. Up intill now all I have seen is:
- Konis or Tein SS are better cause they are more expensive.
- No technical prooff as to why they are better. SS particularly.
- His opinions are bassed on the general publics opinion.
- KYB's are of lesser quality possibly because his RS kit won't clear.
- Has shown me no evidence as far as the KYB's have problems or unsatisfied customers. I have never read of anyone blowing a KYB as of yet contrary to numeruos problems I have read over the net with his product of choice.
- And if he has done any reaserch it has been a one sided one. He was quivk to assume the KYB's were unproven. But that's not true. They have been used for a while now on our cars and possibly the majority of users are KYB's.

Like I said. I wasn't recomending what product you should by or never did I say these are better contrary to some with almost next to non-existasnt technical knowlidge on this topic who swear by a product.

Now about ratting once my more the KYB's. I've been driving the car hard. And every single time the suspention setup has held up to my expectations. In every instance the tires were the weekest link and there was no evidence of suspention difficiencies.

[Jarek]

To clarify, has anyone had springs like I do, H&R sports and later on put the KYB's on. Is there a difference?

[OUZO Power]

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Question for the guys with the KYB's already on: Is there a difference between these and the stock shocks? If so, can you at least describe it?
There is a huge difference between the KYB's and the stock shocks. I think Jerry's post regarding the KYB's and Koni's would be enough evidence to point that out to you. KYB's have four ride settings. I'd say it's safe to say with stiffnes at lowest set to 1 is the equivelent of stock shock ride. Now I have mine set 2 in the front and 3 in the back. I'm bordorline now if I wan't to go stiffer cause I think the ride will become very unpleasant. As far as the way I have my car now to stock settup is day and night. I was pulling crazy moves infront of Trix yesterday. And once more it was the tires that gave up.

[OUZO Power]

Me and Placid had H&R and than put on the KYB's. You can take mine for a spin next weekend to see the difference.

[2fast]

Kostas,
I tried to end this thread but you just keep writing back.
Who cares what I decide. Why are you so bitter just cause I can't prove something. Neither can you! You just went with KYB not knowing which is better as well. YOu also said that you would not be taking the lude to its fullest potential.
Well from the sounds of it, you sure have had the tires lose grip. So like most car enthusiasts u will be addicted to hard driving.

You seem to be so happy with your set up why do you care so much about what my setup will be. IT almost sounds like your upset that you bought them. You continually feel like you have to defend the product! IF you like them that is all that matters. Its your cash spend it how u like.

Anyway I am tired of this thread, its just becoming long and tiring. I am personally Glad that you are happy with your setup and that it works great for you!

I hope I will find the same in mine.

To end its just a car and the shocks are just a product for it!
who cares!

ps..

Kostas you did not have to get personal in your message.
Thats just below the belt. I'm sorry if you felt hurt!

[phatz]

Well this is a funny thread.

The reason I would buy KONI over KYB

1. Iis that if you want a LOW drop you get Koni's straight up. As long as they are stiff, thats all I care. From what KYB sais "max 1.5" Drop springs" anything over you void the warranty! Obviously they are saying this because they are not meant for an agressive drop. When you call KYB over the phone and say "I got 2" or 2.5" drop springs, can I use KYB AGX" see what they say, My sportlines are 1.7-2", they settle allot! I would say 2" 's in total. I would not bother with KYB.


2. I would like to say something about what Kosta's said
"Also read this that I posted before. to explain to someone else. I'm a Civil Engineer. When I design a building or a sewer system or designate max speed of a hwy I always put in a factor of safetey. Lets say I need to select a beam to hold 10 people. So even though (A) beam can hold ten people. I'll still select ( beam that can hold 15. This is my factor of safty. Same goes for all types of engineering. Ask Grant and Marsh. KYB's might emphasize a 1.5 spring drop but for sure they have been designed and tested for a 2 inch spring drop. They are just covering there butts thats all. It's kinda an insurance thing."

I dont agree with this at all! I am not going 2 GUESS that KYB has added some protection/insurance in the shocks, I dont play guessing games, sorta like if your Engine builder sais "Your motor can handle 20PSI of boost" I am going 2 put 20 PSI! I would put 18 PSI of BOOST max "JUST 2 be safe! I am not going 2 push it too 20-25 pounds because I ASSUME that he has under-quoted his estimate. Stay in the limit, they tell me 1.5" I go 1.5" max, why bother pushing it 2 the max? Even if they have a life-time warranty, its not worth the hassle in the long run for some people.

Thats my OWN view on it. So flame away.

[OUZO Power]

Paul at no point would ever make this personal. I try to keep it limited within this thread and not even the forum. I have nothing against you or anyone on this board. I'm the sweetest guy alive I've been told. So if you think or I made you feel singled out forgive me. Any fueds should be limited to this thread and not carried further than than that. Having that in mind my opinion towards you your caracter has not been altered and view you as a valiued TPC member and friend. I guess it's been a rough day for me from the get go and hope it ends soon, guess I was snappy.

Now back to the topic. I don't swear for any product I have put on my car and never will. Hell no those ****ers cause it cost me an arm and a leg.

[Jarek]

So, after all this can anyone provide technical info about these products and maybe put to rest our fears and misconceptions about each? :D Or do I have to use that Internet thing that Kuljit is always talking about and do some research?!!?:confused: :P

[Laura]

Ahem.. ok guys... be good.. we all have to play nice in the Sandbox.

[Grant]

Man there is so much I want to comment on in this thread. I'm just too sleepy right now... I would love to add my 2 cents, but if I start, I'd probably get up to at least a buck-fifty... :P ...maybe tomorrow..

woohoo new page..:D

[Jarek]

Originally posted by Grant

woohoo new page..:D
Only if you have the setting at default 40 posts per page.. :P

[Keith]

Originally posted by Grant
Man there is so much I want to comment on in this thread. I'm just too sleepy right now... I would love to add my 2 cents, but if I start, I'd probably get up to at least a buck-fifty... :P ...maybe tomorrow..

woohoo new page..:D

I can't wait for this one!:D

[OUZO Power]

Guys like I said before. I'm not doing a product comparison. I can't stress that out enough. Neither do I have the technical knowledge to do so. I'm just saying whats going on with what I got on the ride now and limiting it to that. My only gauge is my experiense with them so far.

Now Rob you left out some of that post. I did not recomend that based on that consept you can go more than a 1.5 spring drop. All I'm saying is based on the fundimentals of engineering, factors of saftey have been taken into acount. When one corners hard on then those are active forces. Guess what. Those active forces result in more than a 2" drop lets say to the outer side of the car. However it's the passive moments that are created from a lets say 2" drop spring they are worried about, plus the enhanced active forces. In the beam example if you were my client and asked for a beam to support 10 people, I would proceed with designing it to support 15 people or a factor of 1.5 for the ten people. However when my design is complete I would return it to you and specify that it's for 10 people per your request. Got it? It's my ass on the line. Not yours. In the same fasion KYB would not bring the maximum capacity (1.5") to the yield point exatly. There is some room to work with. And I still don't recomend passing 1.5. This kinda thing is embeded in the field of engineering. For some it's a writen code.

[2fast]

COol,
lets keep it technical.
:peace: :thumbup: :)

[QuikSilver]

- I have H&R sports
- I have KYB AGX's
- I like the ride quality
- I like the price I paid
- That's all i have to add to this post
- bye bye
;)

[clumzy]

That's what I was trying to get at with my last post. Keep it technical and no round about guess-work theories. I wanna see specs and data. 80% of this thread IMO hasn't proven anything. I eagerly anticipate Grant's response.

Currently the only solid(?) data so far is that KYB AGX's are "rated" for use with a spring of 1.5" drop. Rob has confirmed that with the KYB support staff ... if that's solid enough for you. As well we know that both KYB's and Koni's have lifetime warranties and Koni's can be custom-revalved (which is a big plus, yay! thanks for that info Dirty).

What we're missing is this "shock dyno" that Grant mentioned. I take it that these numbers will show thru the ranges of compression the damping, rebound and such characteristics.

IMHO, what changes if we had these numbers and data? Not much. I take it back to GOALS. If you plan on Auto-x'ing, tracking, etc. on a frequent basis then you will buy something that will fit those requirements. For some people I can see that they would never take their car to such a place. It just shows whenever there's a tracking event, you get maybe 20 ppl of a possible 200. Not everyone wants to do that. Bottom line, even if Grant gives unequivical evidence that Koni's are "better" than KYB's you're still gonna look at your budget, goals, spring, etc. to make your decision.

[OUZO Power]

Originally posted by clumzy
IMHO, what changes if we had these numbers and data? Not much. I take it back to GOALS. If you plan on Auto-x'ing, tracking, etc. on a frequent basis then you will buy something that will fit those requirements. For some people I can see that they would never take their car to such a place. It just shows whenever there's a tracking event, you get maybe 20 ppl of a possible 200. Not everyone wants to do that. Bottom line, even if Grant gives unequivical evidence that Koni's are "better" than KYB's you're still gonna look at your budget, goals, spring, etc. to make your decision.
Yes. That's it and was pointed many times out by Keith, you and I. How this became a comparison test I don't have a clue.

[DirtyLude]

Originally posted by clumzy
As well we know that both KYB's and Koni's have lifetime warranties and Koni's can be custom-revalved (which is a big plus, yay! thanks for that info Dirty).Doh! That's so simplified. The authorized Koni Rebuild Centers can and will do anything you want to the shock. Custom valving, custom body length, and rod length, they can add features and it's an authorized Koni service. I just posted that as my reason, but I don't think it really applies to the discussion since we're talking about daily street driven Preludes here and I don't think this kind of thing will factor into most people decission to buy one or the other.

I'm just learning about car shocks myself here and doing a quick search I couldn't find any technical details about the stock Koni or KYB. Koni does have some drawings of their different types of shocks mono tube, twin tube gas, and twin tube hydraulic. The Koni sports are twin tube hydraulic. There's some basic information on them in their catalog:
http://www.koni-na.com/pdfcatalogs/KONI2000StUpdt.pdf

[Keith]

The way I see it, it's like buying a car... say you have the choice of Prelude SH and a base model. One is obviously more expensive than the other since it has additional handling characteristic and options... but if you don't think you need these options like the ATTS and won't drive the car to that limit, should you really get an SH? And does that necessarily mean an SH model is better than a base just cause it's more expensive and has characteristics you won't use?

The reason we have Tein, Koni, KYB, Tokico shocks is so as a consumer, have options based on what we are looking for in a shock.

[DirtyLude]

Originally posted by OUZO Power

Yes. That's it and was pointed many times out by Keith, you and I. How this became a comparison test I don't have a clue. Because without any data on what the benefits and disadvantages are of products, your not making an informed choice, your just blindly picking, and I don't think anyone here wants to do that. You can't fulfil your GOALS without being informed of the product.

If Grant come out with the information that you absolutely can't run lower than 1.5" drop on KYB's AGX's or that Koni Sports really were no different than KYB AGX's obviously many people would change they're minds about the shock they were going to use.

[Grant]

ohman... by the sounds of this, what I thought was going to be one of my signature long multiparagraph posts now looks like it going to need to be a detailed technical breakdown... I never intended to unrefutably state that one damper was better than the other - It'll all come down to dollar value for mostp people but I'll try an list the pros and cons of each...

OK looks like I'm writing a shock article for the FAQ.. This is gonna take more time.. I'll start later this afternoon and post it soon...

[meth0d]

Personally, I've already ordered Neuspeed Sport Springs and plan on ordering Neuspeed Koni Yellows next week. Does anyone know if this setup is good? I imagine it can't be any worse than the H&R/Koni setup. I'm probably going to set the Koni's on the 4th perch front and rear. I don't want a radical drop.

[OUZO Power]

Dude those shocks are awsome. How much you paid?

[meth0d]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
Dude those shocks are awsome. How much you paid?

I haven't ordered them yet, but I get a deal through Psychotic Racing because I'm redesigning his website for free (his site will be database driven with some pretty neat features). Unfortunately I can't release the price I'm paying. ;)

Generally, the Neuspeed Koni Yellows are about $100 more than the regular Yellows.

[Laura]

Thats right.. lets keep it all friendly...:thumbup:

[2fast]

I just thought I would post this since I found it!
Inturpret it how you may!
These are not my views, I just found this.
Please do not flame me!

Who cares what he has to say but pay attention to what
the KYB support staff said!

This is just for people who want to read another opinon!
-----------------------------------------------------

Same boat as you!! Not happy with the drop from Neuspeed Sports (2 finger in the front / 1 in the back). I am going to get something that will drop it down to 1 all around or 0 gap!!!!!

Thought I would share this with you guys.
Before I bought my Neuspeed sports / Bilstein HD's I researched the
$h!t out of the companies. I was just going through my e-mail deleting all the old stuff and found this:

My e-mail:

I will be lowering my car with Neuspeed Sport
springs
(1.5"f / 1.7"r) and looking for good shocks. Do you guys have anything
that
will compliment the springs well? Thanks a lot, Jonathan

KYB's reply:

Jonathan,

thank you for your inquiry. We do not recommend using KYB product with
a
lowering of this much. Your shocks will bottom out and be damaged (very
common with lowered vehicles).
If you wish to lower your vehicle, KYB only recommends the use of
Eibach
ProKit springs with either our GR2 or AGX products.

regards,
Chuck Gonwa
KYB America LLC
Product Manager
Phone: (630) 620-5555
Fax: (630) 620-8133
E-Mail : chuck@kyb.com [/B]

I researched the **** out of this and not happy with my drop from the Neuspeed sports

I wanted just a nice, not to low drop, that would look even!! Neuspeed rides nice, looks like $hit when sitting!! F**k it!! I'm going for a 0 or 1 finger gap and f**k the ride!!!



------------------------------------------------

According to this KYB staff member, I could not get the KYB if i wanted to, since they recommend Eibach! not H&R which is what I prefer!

[silvalude]

I wonder how more of a drop u'll get if you put the Eibach Pro Kit springs and KYB AGX together. . .. probably 1.8 inches if there was a similar half-inch drop like the kyb agx/h&r sports springs combo??

[clumzy]

Originally posted by DirtyLude
Because without any data on what the benefits and disadvantages are of products, your not making an informed choice, your just blindly picking, and I don't think anyone here wants to do that. You can't fulfil your GOALS without being informed of the product.


:thumbup: :thumbup:

[ZzRicezZ]

btw who here currently have koni with H&R sport or race?

[Placid]

Originally posted by 2fast
According to this KYB staff member, I could not get the KYB if i wanted to, since they recommend Eibach! not H&R which is what I prefer!

ummm...I think it's safe to say that the Eibach Prokit is more or less the same drop as H&R Sports (from what I understand, Eibach tends to sag more.)

[Tank]

KYB recommends Eibach because they have a deal with Eibach And their springs (labelled KYB ) are made by Eibach. That is the reason why they recommend Eibach. The tech staff gets paid to say that.

[ggweci]

Originally posted by ZzRicezZ
btw who here currently have koni with H&R sport or race?

not me...but i do have the Race (Neuspeed) springs killing the crap out of my stock shocks right now :D ...but seriously, i'll be getting the Konis after i place the order with Sherman this week...and they should be installed early spring, i hope...i'll let you know how it goes...

as for the Eibach vs H&R sports...i think it's 1.3" and 1.7"/1.5" respectively...

[Placid]

Originally posted by ggweci

as for the Eibach vs H&R sports...i think it's 1.3" and 1.7"/1.5" respectively...

Eibach Prokit ----> 1.3"
H&R Sport -------> 1.4"

I believe it's the Neuspeed Sport that is 1.7"/1.5"

[OUZO Power]

I have heard this before but don't quote me that the eibachs tend to sag/settle more.

[Keith]

Originally posted by OUZO Power
the eibachs tend to sag/settle more.

I just quoted you buddy...

[OUZO Power]

You bastard.